Re: AW: Re: Bow

[Patrik Djurfeldt]

John,

2010/3/31 John Richards :
> ... but when you're creeping =3D
> through the woods as an English archer in Burgundian service, with a lot =
=3D
> of angry Bernese trying to find the main Burgundian army, you're going =
=3D
> to have the bow on your person. Now, we assume that the bow was not =3D
> strung unless action is imminent (anyone who has actually skirmished =3D
> with a bow will know that carrying a strung bow and trying to run =3D
> through woods is a major pain in the arse). So.. [...]
>This seems so elementarily obvious that I =3D
> can't believe that no one thought of it in a 1000 years of bow history. =
=3D

Your description of archers creeping through the woods sounds very
much like the actions of a hunter. If bow bags were used in warfare,
one would expect them to have been used in hunting as well, perhaps
even more so. I hope that hunting sources have been scoured for bow
bags as well?

> Now, we haven't found any evidence of bow bags, but the object is a thin =
=3D
> tube of linen material, maybe waxed, about 1.80m long and 25mm wide. If =
=3D
> an archeologist found one, would he have a clue what it was? Such =3D
> objects were doubtless used for a multitude of other things as well and =
=3D
> if you found one at a dig, why would you think it was for a bow?

Please name one other thing you would use a 1.80 m long and 25 mm wide
linen bag for, in the Middle Ages. I'm not doubting that there could
be one, although nothing comes to mind at the moment (a money belt is
the closest approximation I can come up with at the moment, although
they would normally be much shorter...). I think such a bag would
raise quite a few eyebrows... :)

Regards,
Patrik Djurfeldt

>
> On Mar 30, 2010, at 17:57, Gerry Embleton wrote:
>
>> I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>> large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who owned =3D
> =3D3D20
>> their own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I believe that some =
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> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>> of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished staves.Bows Can be =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>> waxes but a stout linen or leather bag will protect them =A0from knocks =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>> surprisingly well.I believe that a mediaevil archers had even more =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>> reason to protect their bows than we do given their service.
>>=3D20
>> Gerry
>> Bow bags..
>> On 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>=3D20
>>> Hi Dave,
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I am sure that for mass storage bows would have bee=
n =3D3D20
>>> carried in
>>> chests as were arrows for safety and convenience. =A0On the other hand =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> when
>>> carried by individuals I =A0would have thought that they would have =3D=
3D20=3D
>
>>> shown
>>> greater care. =A0My particular period is the high/low point of English =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> archery
>>> that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is
>>> certainly the case.
>>> Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =3D3D20
>>> produced by
>>> craft methods to a very high standard. =A0Certainly archers may have =
=3D
> =3D3D20
>>> appeared
>>> at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure that many were issued =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> with
>>> equipment provided by their employer. =A0Whenever I have been issued =
=3D
> =3D3D20
>>> with a
>>> weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =3D3D20
>>> accouterments,
>>> keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a good little =3D3D2=
0
>>> soldier.
>>> This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning. =A0I look after my =3D3=
D20
>>> bows with
>>> similar care but they require less care. =A0Of course there are =3D
> 'orrible
>>> little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment but if your =3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> life
>>> depends upon its serviceability =A0(as mine never did) you would =3D3D2=
0
>>> certainly
>>> care for it.
>>>=3D20
>>> The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I =3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> think
>>> and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>> well as
>>> for other qualities as soldiers.
>>>=3D20
>>> I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =3D3D20
>>> school part
>>> for the next few days.
>>>=3D20
>>> Cheers
>>> Jonathan
>>>=3D20
>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =3D3D2=
0
>>> wrote:
>>>=3D20
>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =3D3D20
>>>> stored in
>>>> chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your article.
>>>>=3D20
>>>> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we
>>>> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =3D3D20
>>>> equipment
>>>> as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was not =3D3D2=
0
>>>> required
>>>> by the medieval archer.
>>>>=3D20
>>>> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question =3D
> the
>>>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his
>>>> 'valuable' equipment".
>>>>=3D20
>>>> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> have
>>>> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =3D3D20
>>>> stored in
>>>> English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts suggesting =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> a more
>>>> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =3D3D20
>>>> normally
>>>> assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais in 1481 =3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> there
>>>> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even
>>>> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =3D3D20
>>>> references
>>>> I've seen to bow bags.
>>>>=3D20
>>>> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> arrow
>>>> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>>>=3D20
>>>> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>> military
>>>> context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both bows and =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> arrows
>>>> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Dave
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>> Jonathan Davies 
>>>> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>> 30/03/2010 11:12
>>>> Please respond to
>>>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>> To
>>>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>> cc
>>>>=3D20
>>>> Subject
>>>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =3D3D20
>>>> chests. =A0One
>>>> of
>>>> his decapitated Queen's was buried in one (skinflint). =A0They =3D3D20
>>>> (chests not
>>>> dead queens) have also been found in the Mary Rose. =A0To store bows =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> safely
>>>> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they
>>>> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>> are). =A0If
>>>> you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on Henry =3D
> =3D3D20
>>>> VIII's
>>>> inventory which appeared in the Journal of the Society of Army =3D3D20
>>>> Historical
>>>> Research ages ago. =A0It deals with all the archers ancillary =3D3D20
>>>> equipment. In
>>>> those circumstances. =A0It doesn't included bowbags for military bows =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> but it
>>>> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>>>> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in
>>>> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar. =A0I wonder if bow bags =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> and
>>>> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> didn't
>>>> automatically identify them as being archery equipment. =A0At a =3D3D2=
0
>>>> lecture at
>>>> the
>>>> Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton skeletons it was
>>>> postulated that a small copper ring on one of the corpses could =3D3D2=
0
>>>> have been
>>>> an
>>>> archer's thumb ring! =A0 I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>>>> museum
>>>> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =3D3D20
>>>> exactly like
>>>> horn nocks for bows prior to finishing. =A0You tend to see/interpret =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> what
>>>> you
>>>> naturally identify and are looking for.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>=3D20
>>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=3D3DF6rner
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung =
=3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> anyway?=3D3D3D20
>>>>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>> like =3D3D3D
>>>>> weapons
>>>>> according to froissart for instance in the 100years war generally. =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> When
>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>> near
>>>>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =3D3D20
>>>>> really a
>>>>> reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be the =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>> reason =3D3D3D
>>>>> why
>>>>> we only bows strung in pictures? Compared to the crossbow, strings =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> are
>>>>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the =
=3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> housebook
>>>>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =3D3D20
>>>>> crossbows
>>>>> without any kind of protection.=3D3D3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> would
>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>> be
>>>>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>> march
>>>>> situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> with kind regards,
>>>>> Jens B=3D3D3DF6rner
>>>>> Diu Minnez=3D3D3DEEt
>>>>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =3D3D20
>>>>> clothing and
>>>>> household equipment in the high and late middle ages
>>>>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> -----Urspr=3D3D3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> von
>>>>> Jonathan Davies
>>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3D3D3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>>>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =3D
> =3D3D20
>>>>> bow, =3D3D3D
>>>>> ash,
>>>>> elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around. =A0I have owned =3D=
3D20=3D
>
>>>>> all =3D3D3D
>>>>> three
>>>>> and shoot a war bow and treating them like an old chair leg would =3D
> =3D3D3D
>>>>> horrify
>>>>> me! Bow bags also help protect them from direct sunlight. =A0You =3D3=
D20
>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>> leave a bow out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =
=3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> potential
>>>>> consequences. =A0A bows performance is compromised by both heat and =
=3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> cold =3D3D3D
>>>>> as I
>>>>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through
>>>>> carelessness. =A0Bows need protection from the elements and it is =3D=
3D20=3D
>
>>>>> natural
>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>> for
>>>>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment. =A0Whether the =3D3D2=
0
>>>>> strings =3D3D3D
>>>>> need
>>>>> protection from rain is another question, we still wait on the =3D3D2=
0
>>>>> Mary Rose
>>>>> excavations for some definitive information on the subject. =A0How =
=3D
> =3D3D20
>>>>> they
>>>>> protected the surface of the bow is another question entirely.
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <
>>>>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>>>> it=3D3D3D20
>>>>>>> uncovered when not in use. =A0If I do that should I assume that =3D=
3D20=3D
>
>>>>>>> my=3D3D3D20
>>>>>>> illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less? =A0If they did =3D
> not=3D3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>>> 14th=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence of any =3D3D=
3D=3D
>
>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they =3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>>> do=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =3D
> =3D3D20
>>>>>> of=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> protection that was being used.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>>>> the=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>>> and=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on a =3D3D20
>>>>>> period=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> illustration either.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text =
=3D
> =3D3D3D=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>>> sources.
>>>>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =3D3D2=
0
>>>>>> access.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =3D3D20
>>>>>> could=3D3D3D20
>>>>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor =3D
> scratchings
>>>> on
>>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =3D3D=
20=3D
>
>>>>>> without
>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> the linnen bag.
>>>>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =3D
> =3D3D20
>>>>>> is far
>>>> =3D3D3D
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> more effective.
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>>=3D20
>>>> Unless stated otherwise above:
>>>> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =3D
> =3D3D20
>>>> number
>>>> 741598.
>>>> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =3D
> =3D3D20=3D3D
>>=3D20
>>>> PO6 3AU
>>>>=3D20
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>>>>=3D20
>>>=3D20
>>>=3D20
>>> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
>>> -- Type: application/msword
>>> -- File: Inventory.doc
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