Re: AW: Re: Bow

[e.berndt-at-europe.com]

Now that was a very colourful story there :)   Still I don't see how a bow on your back should suit you more than a bow in your hand, while creeping through the jungle. All of these why wouldn't they have come up with a bowbag in a 1000 yrs. are mere speculations and don't change facts.

Grts,

Ernst






-----Original Message-----
From: John Richards 
To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
Sent: Wed, Mar 31, 2010 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: AW: Re: Bow


In such cases, I like to think of how I would carry a bow if I was an =
rcher on campaign. Personal firearms are transported from and to the =
attlefield in chests as well, but no one is going to suggest that when =
ou're on patrol, the firearm is transported on a jeep behind you? =
imilarly we must differentiate between transport and use. Of course =
ows were transported in chests and barrels, but when you're creeping =
hrough the woods as an English archer in Burgundian service, with a lot =
f angry Bernese trying to find the main Burgundian army, you're going =
o have the bow on your person. Now, we assume that the bow was not =
trung unless action is imminent (anyone who has actually skirmished =
ith a bow will know that carrying a strung bow and trying to run =
hrough woods is a major pain in the arse). So.. you have an unstrung =
ow, but do you hold it in your hand, or do you put it in a handy bow =
ag or sleeve and sling it on your back, thereby keeping both hands free =
or other tasks? A bow bag will roll up amazingly small and can be =
asily stored in your clothing, along with the string in a handy =
ontainer - the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages - the bow is =
ept dry, out of the sun and is protected from scrapes and bumps, plus =
an slung around your person. This seems so elementarily obvious that I =
an't believe that no one thought of it in a 1000 years of bow history. =
ow, we haven't found any evidence of bow bags, but the object is a thin =
ube of linen material, maybe waxed, about 1.80m long and 25mm wide. If =
n archeologist found one, would he have a clue what it was? Such =
bjects were doubtless used for a multitude of other things as well and =
f you found one at a dig, why would you think it was for a bow?
I'm going to search more carefully - I'm sure there will be a picture of =
 bow in a cover. After all, there are pictures of crossbows in covers, =
'll post them.
John


n Mar 30, 2010, at 17:57, Gerry Embleton wrote:
> I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =
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 large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who owned =
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 their own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I believe that some =
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 of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished staves.Bows Can be =
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 waxes but a stout linen or leather bag will protect them  from knocks =
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 surprisingly well.I believe that a mediaevil archers had even more =3D20=
> reason to protect their bows than we do given their service.
=20
 Gerry
 Bow bags..
 On 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
=20
> Hi Dave,
>           I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =3D20
> carried in
> chests as were arrows for safety and convenience.  On the other hand =
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> when
> carried by individuals I  would have thought that they would have =3D20=
>> shown
> greater care.  My particular period is the high/low point of English =
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=20
> archery
> that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is
> certainly the case.
> Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =3D20
> produced by
> craft methods to a very high standard.  Certainly archers may have =
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> appeared
> at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure that many were issued =
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> with
> equipment provided by their employer.  Whenever I have been issued =
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> with a
> weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =3D20
> accouterments,
> keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a good little =3D20
> soldier.
> This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning.  I look after my =3D20
> bows with
> similar care but they require less care.  Of course there are =
orrible
> little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment but if your =
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> life
> depends upon its serviceability  (as mine never did) you would =3D20
> certainly
> care for it.
>=20
> The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I =
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> think
> and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as =
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=20
> well as
> for other qualities as soldiers.
>=20
> I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =3D20
> school part
> for the next few days.
>=20
> Cheers
> Jonathan
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =3D20
> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Jonathan,
>> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =3D20
>> stored in
>> chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your article.
>>=20
>> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we
>> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =3D20
>> equipment
>> as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was not =3D20
>> required
>> by the medieval archer.
>>=20
>> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question =
he
>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his
>> 'valuable' equipment".
>>=20
>> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we =
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>> have
>> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =3D20
>> stored in
>> English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts suggesting =
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>> a more
>> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =3D20
>> normally
>> assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais in 1481 =
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>> there
>> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even
>> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =3D20
>> references
>> I've seen to bow bags.
>>=20
>> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and =
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>> arrow
>> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>=20
>> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =3D20=
>>> military
>> context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both bows and =
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>> arrows
>> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> Dave
>>=20
>>=20
>> Jonathan Davies 
>> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> 30/03/2010 11:12
>> Please respond to
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>=20
>>=20
>> To
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> cc
>>=20
>> Subject
>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =3D20
>> chests.  One
>> of
>> his decapitated Queen's was buried in one (skinflint).  They =3D20
>> (chests not
>> dead queens) have also been found in the Mary Rose.  To store bows =
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>> safely
>> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they
>> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =3D20=
>>> are).  If
>> you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on Henry =
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>> VIII's
>> inventory which appeared in the Journal of the Society of Army =3D20
>> Historical
>> Research ages ago.  It deals with all the archers ancillary =3D20
>> equipment. In
>> those circumstances.  It doesn't included bowbags for military bows =
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>> but it
>> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in
>> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar.  I wonder if bow bags =
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>> and
>> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who =
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>> didn't
>> automatically identify them as being archery equipment.  At a =3D20
>> lecture at
>> the
>> Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton skeletons it was
>> postulated that a small copper ring on one of the corpses could =3D20
>> have been
>> an
>> archer's thumb ring!   I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>> museum
>> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =3D20
>> exactly like
>> horn nocks for bows prior to finishing.  You tend to see/interpret =
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>> what
>> you
>> naturally identify and are looking for.
>> Cheers
>> Jonathan
>>=20
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=3DF6rner
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung =
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>>> anyway?=3D3D20
>>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =3D20=
>>>> like =3D3D
>>> weapons
>>> according to froissart for instance in the 100years war generally. =
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>>> When
>> =3D3D
>>> near
>>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =3D20
>>> really a
>>> reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be the =3D20=
>>>> reason =3D3D
>>> why
>>> we only bows strung in pictures? Compared to the crossbow, strings =
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=20
>>> are
>>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the =
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=20
>>> housebook
>>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =3D20
>>> crossbows
>>> without any kind of protection.=3D3D20
>>>=20
>>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it =
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>>> would
>> =3D3D
>>> be
>>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =3D20=
>>>> march
>>> situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>>=20
>>> with kind regards,
>>> Jens B=3D3DF6rner
>>> Diu Minnez=3D3DEEt
>>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =3D20
>>> clothing and
>>> household equipment in the high and late middle ages
>>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Urspr=3D3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag =
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>>> von
>>> Jonathan Davies
>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3D3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>>=20
>>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =
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>>> bow, =3D3D
>>> ash,
>>> elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around.  I have owned =3D20=
>>>> all =3D3D
>>> three
>>> and shoot a war bow and treating them like an old chair leg would =
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>>> horrify
>>> me! Bow bags also help protect them from direct sunlight.  You =3D20
>>> shouldn't
>>> leave a bow out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =
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>>> potential
>>> consequences.  A bows performance is compromised by both heat and =
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>>> cold =3D3D
>>> as I
>>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through
>>> carelessness.  Bows need protection from the elements and it is =3D20=
>>>> natural
>> =3D3D
>>> for
>>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment.  Whether the =3D20
>>> strings =3D3D
>>> need
>>> protection from rain is another question, we still wait on the =3D20
>>> Mary Rose
>>> excavations for some definitive information on the subject.  How =
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>>> they
>>> protected the surface of the bow is another question entirely.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jonathan
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <
>>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>> it=3D3D20
>>>>> uncovered when not in use.  If I do that should I assume that =3D20=
>>>>>> my=3D3D20
>>>>> illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less?  If they did =
ot=3D3D20=3D
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>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
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>>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>>=20
>>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =3D20=
>>>>> 14th=3D3D20
>>>> and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence of any =3D3D=
>>>> evidence.
>>>>=20
>>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they =
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>>>> do=3D3D20
>>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =
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>>>> of=3D3D20
>>>> protection that was being used.
>>>>=20
>>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>> the=3D3D20
>>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>>=20
>>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =3D20=
>>>>> and=3D3D20
>>>> uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on a =3D20
>>>> period=3D3D20
>>>> illustration either.
>>>>=20
>>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text =
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>>> sources.
>>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =3D20
>>>> access.
>>>>=20
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>>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =3D20
>>>> could=3D3D20
>>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor =
cratchings
>> on
>>> =3D3D
>>>=20
>>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =3D20=
>>>>> without
>> =3D3D
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>>>> the linnen bag.
>>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =
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>>>> is far
>> =3D3D
>>>=20
>>>> more effective.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best,
>>>>=20
>>>> Christian
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>> Unless stated otherwise above:
>> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =
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>> number
>> 741598.
>> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =
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>> PO6 3AU
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> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
> -- Type: application/msword
> -- File: Inventory.doc
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