Re: AW: Re: Bow

[John Richards]

In such cases, I like to think of how I would carry a bow if I was an =
archer on campaign. Personal firearms are transported from and to the =
battlefield in chests as well, but no one is going to suggest that when =
you're on patrol, the firearm is transported on a jeep behind you? =
Similarly we must differentiate between transport and use. Of course =
bows were transported in chests and barrels, but when you're creeping =
through the woods as an English archer in Burgundian service, with a lot =
of angry Bernese trying to find the main Burgundian army, you're going =
to have the bow on your person. Now, we assume that the bow was not =
strung unless action is imminent (anyone who has actually skirmished =
with a bow will know that carrying a strung bow and trying to run =
through woods is a major pain in the arse). So.. you have an unstrung =
bow, but do you hold it in your hand, or do you put it in a handy bow =
bag or sleeve and sling it on your back, thereby keeping both hands free =
for other tasks? A bow bag will roll up amazingly small and can be =
easily stored in your clothing, along with the string in a handy =
container - the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages - the bow is =
kept dry, out of the sun and is protected from scrapes and bumps, plus =
can slung around your person. This seems so elementarily obvious that I =
can't believe that no one thought of it in a 1000 years of bow history. =
Now, we haven't found any evidence of bow bags, but the object is a thin =
tube of linen material, maybe waxed, about 1.80m long and 25mm wide. If =
an archeologist found one, would he have a clue what it was? Such =
objects were doubtless used for a multitude of other things as well and =
if you found one at a dig, why would you think it was for a bow?

I'm going to search more carefully - I'm sure there will be a picture of =
a bow in a cover. After all, there are pictures of crossbows in covers, =
I'll post them.

John




On Mar 30, 2010, at 17:57, Gerry Embleton wrote:

> I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =
=3D20=3D
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> large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who owned =
=3D20
> their own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I believe that some =
=3D20=3D
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> of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished staves.Bows Can be =
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> waxes but a stout linen or leather bag will protect them  from knocks =
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> surprisingly well.I believe that a mediaevil archers had even more =3D20=

> reason to protect their bows than we do given their service.
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> Gerry
> Bow bags..
> On 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
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>> Hi Dave,
>>           I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =3D20
>> carried in
>> chests as were arrows for safety and convenience.  On the other hand =
=3D20=3D
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>> when
>> carried by individuals I  would have thought that they would have =3D20=

>> shown
>> greater care.  My particular period is the high/low point of English =
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>> archery
>> that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is
>> certainly the case.
>> Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =3D20
>> produced by
>> craft methods to a very high standard.  Certainly archers may have =
=3D20
>> appeared
>> at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure that many were issued =
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>> with
>> equipment provided by their employer.  Whenever I have been issued =
=3D20
>> with a
>> weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =3D20
>> accouterments,
>> keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a good little =3D20
>> soldier.
>> This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning.  I look after my =3D20
>> bows with
>> similar care but they require less care.  Of course there are =
'orrible
>> little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment but if your =
=3D20=3D
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>> life
>> depends upon its serviceability  (as mine never did) you would =3D20
>> certainly
>> care for it.
>>=20
>> The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I =
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>> think
>> and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as =
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>> well as
>> for other qualities as soldiers.
>>=20
>> I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =3D20
>> school part
>> for the next few days.
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> Jonathan
>>=20
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =3D20
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =3D20
>>> stored in
>>> chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your article.
>>>=20
>>> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we
>>> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =3D20
>>> equipment
>>> as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was not =3D20
>>> required
>>> by the medieval archer.
>>>=20
>>> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question =
the
>>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his
>>> 'valuable' equipment".
>>>=20
>>> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we =
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>=20
>>> have
>>> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =3D20
>>> stored in
>>> English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts suggesting =
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>>> a more
>>> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =3D20
>>> normally
>>> assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais in 1481 =
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>>> there
>>> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even
>>> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =3D20
>>> references
>>> I've seen to bow bags.
>>>=20
>>> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and =
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>>> arrow
>>> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>>=20
>>> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =3D20=

>>> military
>>> context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both bows and =
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>>> arrows
>>> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>> Dave
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Jonathan Davies 
>>> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> 30/03/2010 11:12
>>> Please respond to
>>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> To
>>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> cc
>>>=20
>>> Subject
>>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =3D20
>>> chests.  One
>>> of
>>> his decapitated Queen's was buried in one (skinflint).  They =3D20
>>> (chests not
>>> dead queens) have also been found in the Mary Rose.  To store bows =
=3D20=3D
>=20
>>> safely
>>> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they
>>> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =3D20=

>>> are).  If
>>> you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on Henry =
=3D20
>>> VIII's
>>> inventory which appeared in the Journal of the Society of Army =3D20
>>> Historical
>>> Research ages ago.  It deals with all the archers ancillary =3D20
>>> equipment. In
>>> those circumstances.  It doesn't included bowbags for military bows =
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>=20
>>> but it
>>> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>>> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in
>>> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar.  I wonder if bow bags =
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>=20
>>> and
>>> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who =
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>>> didn't
>>> automatically identify them as being archery equipment.  At a =3D20
>>> lecture at
>>> the
>>> Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton skeletons it was
>>> postulated that a small copper ring on one of the corpses could =3D20
>>> have been
>>> an
>>> archer's thumb ring!   I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>>> museum
>>> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =3D20
>>> exactly like
>>> horn nocks for bows prior to finishing.  You tend to see/interpret =
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>>> what
>>> you
>>> naturally identify and are looking for.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jonathan
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=3DF6rner
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>=20
>>>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung =
=3D3D=3D
>=20
>>>> anyway?=3D3D20
>>>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =3D20=

>>>> like =3D3D
>>>> weapons
>>>> according to froissart for instance in the 100years war generally. =
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>=20
>>>> When
>>> =3D3D
>>>> near
>>>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =3D20
>>>> really a
>>>> reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be the =3D20=

>>>> reason =3D3D
>>>> why
>>>> we only bows strung in pictures? Compared to the crossbow, strings =
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>>>> are
>>>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the =
=3D3D=3D
>=20
>>>> housebook
>>>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =3D20
>>>> crossbows
>>>> without any kind of protection.=3D3D20
>>>>=20
>>>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it =
=3D20=3D
>=20
>>>> would
>>> =3D3D
>>>> be
>>>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =3D20=

>>>> march
>>>> situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>>>=20
>>>> with kind regards,
>>>> Jens B=3D3DF6rner
>>>> Diu Minnez=3D3DEEt
>>>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =3D20
>>>> clothing and
>>>> household equipment in the high and late middle ages
>>>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Urspr=3D3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag =
=3D20=3D
>=20
>>>> von
>>>> Jonathan Davies
>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3D3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>>>=20
>>>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =
=3D20
>>>> bow, =3D3D
>>>> ash,
>>>> elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around.  I have owned =3D20=

>>>> all =3D3D
>>>> three
>>>> and shoot a war bow and treating them like an old chair leg would =
=3D3D
>>>> horrify
>>>> me! Bow bags also help protect them from direct sunlight.  You =3D20
>>>> shouldn't
>>>> leave a bow out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =
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>>>> potential
>>>> consequences.  A bows performance is compromised by both heat and =
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>>>> cold =3D3D
>>>> as I
>>>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through
>>>> carelessness.  Bows need protection from the elements and it is =3D20=

>>>> natural
>>> =3D3D
>>>> for
>>>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment.  Whether the =3D20
>>>> strings =3D3D
>>>> need
>>>> protection from rain is another question, we still wait on the =3D20
>>>> Mary Rose
>>>> excavations for some definitive information on the subject.  How =
=3D20
>>>> they
>>>> protected the surface of the bow is another question entirely.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <
>>>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>>> it=3D3D20
>>>>>> uncovered when not in use.  If I do that should I assume that =3D20=

>>>>>> my=3D3D20
>>>>>> illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less?  If they did =
not=3D3D20=3D
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>>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =3D20=

>>>>> 14th=3D3D20
>>>>> and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence of any =3D3D=

>>>> evidence.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they =
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>=20
>>>>> do=3D3D20
>>>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =
=3D20
>>>>> of=3D3D20
>>>>> protection that was being used.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>>> the=3D3D20
>>>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =3D20=

>>>>> and=3D3D20
>>>>> uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on a =3D20
>>>>> period=3D3D20
>>>>> illustration either.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text =
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>>>> sources.
>>>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =3D20
>>>>> access.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =3D20
>>>>> could=3D3D20
>>>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor =
scratchings
>>> on
>>>> =3D3D
>>>>=20
>>>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =3D20=

>>>>> without
>>> =3D3D
>>>>=20
>>>>> the linnen bag.
>>>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =
=3D20
>>>>> is far
>>> =3D3D
>>>>=20
>>>>> more effective.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Christian
>>>>>=20
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>>> Unless stated otherwise above:
>>> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =
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>>> number
>>> 741598.
>>> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =
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>>> PO6 3AU
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>> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
>> -- Type: application/msword
>> -- File: Inventory.doc
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