Re: Bow Cases & Chests

[Patrik Djurfeldt]

Google is your friend... ;)
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstaberg/Dolnstein/Dolnsteinschlacht2.jpg
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=1473

Regards,
Patrik

2010/3/31 Dave Key :
> Cheers Patrik,
> I was trying to remember this stuff .. obviously not very well. Could you
> repost copies or links to copies of the pictures so I can remind myself
> ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
>
> Patrik Djurfeldt 
> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> 31/03/2010 14:02
> Please respond to
> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>
>
> To
> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Bow Cases & Chests
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Time for a Swedish contribution!
>
> 2010/3/31 Dave Key :
>> And a final picture ... some time ago someone posted a picture of a
>> Swedish soldier with an arrow bag. As well as the arrow bag he carries a
>> halberd and a bow ... to my mind the bow is shown unstrung but uncovered
>> (as the illustration is a simple line drawing it's hard to be sure).
>> However, I'd be fascinated to know what others think and whether there
> are
>> any more, similar, drawings from the same MSS that might be clearer?
>
> The picture of the Swedish soldier does not appear to carry a bow at
> all. He carries a two-handed sword at his left hip. The pommel is
> visible (although poorly drawn) as well as parts of the cross-piece.
> Dispite the low quality of the drawing, it is a good example of what
> seems to be a typical Swedish sword type of the early 16th c.
>
> Regarding his "arrow bag", I'm not convinced that it is more than a
> "rucksack". The same type of bag is visible on the back of a
> crossbowman in the first line in the famous battle scene from the same
> MS. It should be noted that the Swedish contingent in this battle
> scene does not include ANY archers, only crossbowmen, the rest
> consisting of staffswordmen and halberdiers.
>
> So... unfortunately these two well-known pictures from the MS don't
> appear to show any archery equipment at all... I will try to check the
> other pictures I have from the MS, but I don't remember seeing archery
> equipment.
>
> Regards,
> Patrik Djurfeldt
>
>
>> Clifton McCurley 
>> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> 30/03/2010 20:56
>> Please respond to
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>
>>
>> To
>> 
>> cc
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thought I'd chime in from America. By the way, I don't respond to many
> of
>> these discussions due to my lack of knowledge on European warfare. I
> love
>> reading everything posted and learning though.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyways, to my point. I would contend that one of the reasons there
> aren't
>> any bow bags left over would be the reason why it is difficult to find
>> socks from the American Civil War. They are quite rare due to the fact
>> that they are socks. People just didn't care to preserve them. That is
> why
>> the most avid of American Civil War collectors very rarely find them,
> and
>> that was only 145 years ago. There were millions of them produced, but
>> nobody cared to keep them. They just used them up and tossed them. In
> the
>> case of Medeivel soldiers, I imagine that they would have a bow bag for
> a
>> time, but after use in the elements the soldier would get rid of it and
>> get a new one.
>>
>>
>>
>> I imagine finding garments is hard enough, let alone a skinny linen sack
>> that was considered disposable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyways, just thought I'd chime in. Respects to all, and all my best
> from
>> San Francisco, California!
>>
>>
>>
>> Cliff McCurley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>> From: gerry.embleton-at-time-machine.ch
>>> To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> Subject: Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:13:06 +0200
>>>
>>> I really don`t understand you line of reasoning... why should archers
>>> NOT carry there own bows?Perhaps i`m just a wee bit dim...
>>> Gerry
>>> On 30.03.2010, at 18:55, e.berndt-at-europe.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > I'm not much of a bow-expert, but here's a picture showing longbows
>>> > being excavated from a Mary Rose chest.
>>> >
>>> > [img]http://i39.tinypic.com/w3faq.jpg[/img]
>>> >
>>> > I think it is an acceptable question on how a single archer would
>>> > have saved his weapon from the weather, but on march usually an army
>>> > has light cavalry advancing, so they're save from a surprise attack.
>>> > I guess the truth lies somewhere in between whereas some archers
>>> > must have been fully equipped on march to be able to react fast and
>>> > most were in the train with their bows in chests. Still, a chest can
>>> > be opened very easily and a bow can be strung very quick, so why
>>> > wouldn't they use chests on a campaign?
>>> >
>>> > Grts, Ernst
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Gerry Embleton 
>>> > To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> > Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 5:57 pm
>>> > Subject: Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept
>>> > in =20=
>>> > large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who owned
>>> > =20
>>> > heir own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I believe that
>>> > some =20=
>>> > of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished staves.Bows Can
>>> > be =20=
>>> > waxes but a stout linen or leather bag will protect them from
>>> > knocks =20=
>>> > surprisingly well.I believe that a mediaevil archers had even more
> =20
>>> > eason to protect their bows than we do given their service.
>>> > Gerry
>>> > ow bags..
>>> > n 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>> >> Hi Dave,
>>> > I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =20
>>> > carried in
>>> > chests as were arrows for safety and convenience. On the other hand
>>> > =20=
>>> >> when
>>> > carried by individuals I would have thought that they would have =20
>>> > shown
>>> > greater care. My particular period is the high/low point of English
>>> > =20=
>>> >> archery
>>> > that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is
>>> > certainly the case.
>>> > Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =20
>>> > produced by
>>> > craft methods to a very high standard. Certainly archers may have =20
>>> > appeared
>>> > at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure that many were issued
>>> > =20=
>>> >> with
>>> > equipment provided by their employer. Whenever I have been issued =20
>>> > with a
>>> > weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =20
>>> > accouterments,
>>> > keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a good little =20
>>> > soldier.
>>> > This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning. I look after my =20
>>> > bows with
>>> > similar care but they require less care. Of course there are 'orrible
>>> > little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment but if your
>>> > =20=
>>> >> life
>>> > depends upon its serviceability (as mine never did) you would =20
>>> > certainly
>>> > care for it.
>>> >
>>> > The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I
>>> > =20=
>>> >> think
>>> > and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as
>>> > =20=
>>> >> well as
>>> > for other qualities as soldiers.
>>> >
>>> > I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =20
>>> > school part
>>> > for the next few days.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> > Jonathan
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =20
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Hi Jonathan,
>>> >> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =20
>>> >> stored in
>>> >> chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your article.
>>> >>
>>> >> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we
>>> >> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =20
>>> >> equipment
>>> >> as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was not =20
>>> >> required
>>> >> by the medieval archer.
>>> >>
>>> >> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question
> the
>>> >> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his
>>> >> 'valuable' equipment".
>>> >>
>>> >> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> have
>>> >> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =20
>>> >> stored in
>>> >> English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts suggesting
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> a more
>>> >> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =20
>>> >> normally
>>> >> assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais in 1481
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> there
>>> >> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even
>>> >> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =20
>>> >> references
>>> >> I've seen to bow bags.
>>> >>
>>> >> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> arrow
>>> >> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =20
>>> >> military
>>> >> context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both bows and
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> arrows
>>> >> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >> Dave
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Jonathan Davies 
>>> >> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> >> 30/03/2010 11:12
>>> >> Please respond to
>>> >> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> To
>>> >> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> >> cc
>>> >>
>>> >> Subject
>>> >> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =20
>>> >> chests. One
>>> >> of
>>> >> his decapitated Queen's was buried in one (skinflint). They =20
>>> >> (chests not
>>> >> dead queens) have also been found in the Mary Rose. To store bows
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> safely
>>> >> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they
>>> >> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =20
>>> >> are). If
>>> >> you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on Henry
> =20
>>> >> VIII's
>>> >> inventory which appeared in the Journal of the Society of Army =20
>>> >> Historical
>>> >> Research ages ago. It deals with all the archers ancillary =20
>>> >> equipment. In
>>> >> those circumstances. It doesn't included bowbags for military bows
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> but it
>>> >> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>>> >> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in
>>> >> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar. I wonder if bow bags
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> and
>>> >> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> didn't
>>> >> automatically identify them as being archery equipment. At a =20
>>> >> lecture at
>>> >> the
>>> >> Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton skeletons it was
>>> >> postulated that a small copper ring on one of the corpses could =20
>>> >> have been
>>> >> an
>>> >> archer's thumb ring! I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>>> >> museum
>>> >> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =20
>>> >> exactly like
>>> >> horn nocks for bows prior to finishing. You tend to see/interpret
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> what
>>> >> you
>>> >> naturally identify and are looking for.
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >> Jonathan
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=F6rner
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi all,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung
>>> >>> =3D=
>>> >>>> anyway?=3D20
>>> >>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =20
>>> >>> like =3D
>>> >>> weapons
>>> >>> according to froissart for instance in the 100years war generally.
>>> >>> =20=
>>> >>>> When
>>> >> =3D
>>> >>> near
>>> >>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =20
>>> >>> really a
>>> >>> reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be the =20
>>> >>> reason =3D
>>> >>> why
>>> >>> we only bows strung in pictures? Compared to the crossbow, strings
>>> >>> =20=
>>> >>>> are
>>> >>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the
>>> >>> =3D=
>>> >>>> housebook
>>> >>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =20
>>> >>> crossbows
>>> >>> without any kind of protection.=3D20
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it
>>> >>> =20=
>>> >>>> would
>>> >> =3D
>>> >>> be
>>> >>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =20
>>> >>> march
>>> >>> situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> with kind regards,
>>> >>> Jens B=3DF6rner
>>> >>> Diu Minnez=3DEEt
>>> >>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =20
>>> >>> clothing and
>>> >>> household equipment in the high and late middle ages
>>> >>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----Urspr=3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>> >>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> >>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag
>>> >>> =20=
>>> >>>> von
>>> >>> Jonathan Davies
>>> >>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>> >>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> >>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a
> =20
>>> >>> bow, =3D
>>> >>> ash,
>>> >>> elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around. I have owned =20
>>> >>> all =3D
>>> >>> three
>>> >>> and shoot a war bow and treating them like an old chair leg would
>>> >>> =3D
>>> >>> horrify
>>> >>> me! Bow bags also help protect them from direct sunlight. You =20
>>> >>> shouldn't
>>> >>> leave a bow out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the
>>> >>> =3D=
>>> >>>> potential
>>> >>> consequences. A bows performance is compromised by both heat and
>>> >>> =20=
>>> >>>> cold =3D
>>> >>> as I
>>> >>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through
>>> >>> carelessness. Bows need protection from the elements and it is =20
>>> >>> natural
>>> >> =3D
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment. Whether the =20
>>> >>> strings =3D
>>> >>> need
>>> >>> protection from rain is another question, we still wait on the =20
>>> >>> Mary Rose
>>> >>> excavations for some definitive information on the subject. How =20
>>> >>> they
>>> >>> protected the surface of the bow is another question entirely.
>>> >>> Cheers
>>> >>> Jonathan
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <
>>> >>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>> >>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>> >>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>>> >> it=3D20
>>> >>>>> uncovered when not in use. If I do that should I assume that =20
>>> >>>>> my=3D20
>>> >>>>> illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less? If they did
>>> >>>>> not=3D20=
>>> >>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =20
>>> >>>> 14th=3D20
>>> >>>> and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence of any =3D
>>> >>> evidence.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they
>>> >>>> =20=
>>> >>>>> do=3D20
>>> >>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form
> =20
>>> >>>> of=3D20
>>> >>>> protection that was being used.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>>> >> the=3D20
>>> >>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =20
>>> >>>> and=3D20
>>> >>>> uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on a =20
>>> >>>> period=3D20
>>> >>>> illustration either.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text
>>> >>>> =3D=
>>> >>>> sources.
>>> >>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =20
>>> >>>> access.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =20
>>> >>>> could=3D20
>>> >>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor
> scratchings
>>> >> on
>>> >>> =3D
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =20
>>> >>>> without
>>> >> =3D
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> the linnen bag.
>>> >>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly
> =20
>>> >>>> is far
>>> >> =3D
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> more effective.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Best,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Christian
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Unless stated otherwise above:
>>> >> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with
> =20
>>> >> number
>>> >> 741598.
>>> >> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire
>>> >> =20=
>>> >>> PO6 3AU
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
>>> > -- Type: application/msword
>>> > -- File: Inventory.doc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
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> Unless stated otherwise above:
> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number
> 741598.
> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
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