Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Bow

[e.berndt-at-europe.com]

Well and if they really would, why skould they carry them in a linnen bag?

So, with "why would they" and "why wouldn't they" we cannot assume that they really had these bags or not. As long as there is no evidence for them, having them in Reenactment is sheer speculation. It's just the same thing as with the Burgundian livery coats. Why do people feel uncomfortable when others only question their evidence? If the evidence is good they have nothing to worry about and if not they just need to admit that they're not sure.

No need to feel dim ;)

Greets,
Ernst






-----Original Message-----
From: Jens Börner 
To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 9:14 pm
Subject: AW: Re: AW: Re: Bow


Hi Gerry,
Why would they? Are there any evidences they did?
With kind regards,
ens=20
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
on: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag von =
erry
mbleton
esendet: Dienstag, 30. M=E4rz 2010 21:13
n: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
etreff: Re: AW: Re: Bow
I really don`t understand you line of reasoning... why should archers =
OT
arry there own bows?Perhaps i`m just a wee bit dim...
erry
n 30.03.2010, at 18:55, e.berndt-at-europe.com wrote:
> I'm not much of a bow-expert, but here's a picture showing longbows=20
 being excavated from a Mary Rose chest.

 [img]http://i39.tinypic.com/w3faq.jpg[/img]

 I think it is an acceptable question on how a single archer would have =
> saved his weapon from the weather, but on march usually an army has=20
 light cavalry advancing, so they're save from a surprise attack.
 I guess the truth lies somewhere in between whereas some archers must=20
 have been fully equipped on march to be able to react fast and most=20
 were in the train with their bows in chests. Still, a chest can be=20
 opened very easily and a bow can be strung very quick, so why wouldn't =
> they use chests on a campaign?

 Grts, Ernst






 -----Original Message-----
 From: Gerry Embleton 
 To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
 Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 5:57 pm
 Subject: Re: AW: Re: Bow


 I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =
> =3D20=3D large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who =
> owned =3D20 heir own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I =
elieve=20
 that some =3D20=3D of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished =
> staves.Bows Can be =3D20=3D waxes but a stout linen or leather bag =
ill=20
 protect them  from knocks =3D20=3D surprisingly well.I believe that a=20
 mediaevil archers had even more =3D20 eason to protect their bows than =
> we do given their service.
 Gerry
 ow bags..
 n 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
> Hi Dave,
            I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =3D20=20
 carried in chests as were arrows for safety and convenience.  On the=20
 other hand =3D20=3D
> when
 carried by individuals I  would have thought that they would have =
3D20=20
 shown greater care.  My particular period is the high/low point of=20
 English =3D20=3D
> archery
 that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is=20
 certainly the case.
 Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =3D20=20
 produced by craft methods to a very high standard.  Certainly archers=20
 may have =3D20 appeared at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure =
> that many were issued =3D20=3D
> with
 equipment provided by their employer.  Whenever I have been issued =
3D20=20
 with a weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =3D20 =
> accouterments, keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a=20
 good little =3D20 soldier.
 This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning.  I look after my =3D20 =
> bows with similar care but they require less care.  Of course there=20
 are 'orrible little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment=20
 but if your =3D20=3D
> life
 depends upon its serviceability  (as mine never did) you would =3D20=20
 certainly care for it.

 The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I=20
 =3D20=3D
> think
 and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as=20
 =3D20=3D
> well as
 for other qualities as soldiers.

 I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =3D20=20
 school part for the next few days.

 Cheers
 Jonathan

 On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =3D20
 wrote:

> Hi Jonathan,
> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =3D20=20
> stored in chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your=20
> article.
>
> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we=20
> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =3D20=20
> equipment as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was =
>> not =3D20 required by the medieval archer.
>
> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question the =
>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his=20
> 'valuable' equipment".
>
> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we=20
> =3D20=3D
>> have
> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =3D20=20
> stored in English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts=20
> suggesting =3D20=3D
>> a more
> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =3D20=20
> normally assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais=20
> in 1481 =3D20=3D
>> there
> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even=20
> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =3D20=20
> references I've seen to bow bags.
>
> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and=20
> =3D20=3D
>> arrow
> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>
> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =
3D20=20
> military context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both=20
> bows and =3D20=3D
>> arrows
> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
> Jonathan Davies  Sent by:=20
> living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> 30/03/2010 11:12
> Please respond to
> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>
>
> To
> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =3D20=20
> chests.  One of his decapitated Queen's was buried in one=20
> (skinflint).  They =3D20 (chests not dead queens) have also been =
ound=20
> in the Mary Rose.  To store bows =3D20=3D
>> safely
> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they=20
> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =
3D20=20
> are).  If you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on =
>> Henry =3D20 VIII's inventory which appeared in the Journal of the=20
> Society of Army =3D20 Historical Research ages ago.  It deals with =
ll=20
> the archers ancillary =3D20 equipment. In those circumstances.  It=20
> doesn't included bowbags for military bows =3D20=3D
>> but it
> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in=20
> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar.  I wonder if bow bags=20
> =3D20=3D
>> and
> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who=20
> =3D20=3D
>> didn't
> automatically identify them as being archery equipment.  At a =3D20=20
> lecture at the Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton=20
> skeletons it was postulated that a small copper ring on one of the=20
> corpses could =3D20 have been an
> archer's thumb ring!   I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
> museum
> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =3D20=20
> exactly like horn nocks for bows prior to finishing.  You tend to=20
> see/interpret =3D20=3D
>> what
> you
> naturally identify and are looking for.
> Cheers
> Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=3DF6rner
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung=20
>> =3D3D=3D
>>> anyway?=3D3D20
>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =
3D20=20
>> like =3D3D weapons according to froissart for instance in the =
00years=20
>> war generally.
>> =3D20=3D
>>> When
> =3D3D
>> near
>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =3D20=20
>> really a reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be =
>>> the =3D20 reason =3D3D why we only bows strung in pictures? Compared =
o=20
>> the crossbow, strings =3D20=3D
>>> are
>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the=20
>> =3D3D=3D
>>> housebook
>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =3D20=20
>> crossbows without any kind of protection.=3D3D20
>>
>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> would
> =3D3D
>> be
>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =
3D20=20
>> march situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>
>> with kind regards,
>> Jens B=3D3DF6rner
>> Diu Minnez=3D3DEEt
>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =3D20=20
>> clothing and household equipment in the high and late middle ages=20
>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>
>>
>> -----Urspr=3D3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> von
>> Jonathan Davies
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3D3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>
>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =
3D20=20
>> bow, =3D3D ash, elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around.  I =
>>> have owned =3D20 all =3D3D three and shoot a war bow and treating =
hem=20
>> like an old chair leg would =3D3D horrify me! Bow bags also help=20
>> protect them from direct sunlight.  You =3D20 shouldn't leave a bow=20
>> out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =3D3D=3D
>>> potential
>> consequences.  A bows performance is compromised by both heat and=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> cold =3D3D
>> as I
>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through=20
>> carelessness.  Bows need protection from the elements and it is =
3D20=20
>> natural
> =3D3D
>> for
>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment.  Whether the =3D20=20
>> strings =3D3D need protection from rain is another question, we =
till=20
>> wait on the =3D20 Mary Rose excavations for some definitive=20
>> information on the subject.  How =3D20 they protected the surface of =
>>> the bow is another question entirely.
>> Cheers
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <=20
>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
> it=3D3D20
>>>> uncovered when not in use.  If I do that should I assume that =
3D20=20
>>>> my=3D3D20 illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less?  If they=20
>>>> did not=3D3D20=3D
>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>>
>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>
>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =
3D20=20
>>> 14th=3D3D20 and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence =
>>>> of any =3D3D
>> evidence.
>>>
>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they=20
>>> =3D20=3D
>>>> do=3D3D20
>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =
3D20=20
>>> of=3D3D20 protection that was being used.
>>>
>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
> the=3D3D20
>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>
>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =
3D20=20
>>> and=3D3D20 uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on =
=20
>>> =3D20 period=3D3D20 illustration either.
>>>
>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text=20
>>> =3D3D=3D sources.
>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =3D20 =
>>>> access.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =3D20
>>> could=3D3D20
>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor scratchings
> on
>> =3D3D
>>
>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =
3D20
>>> without
> =3D3D
>>
>>> the linnen bag.
>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =
3D20
>>> is far
> =3D3D
>>
>>> more effective.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Unless stated otherwise above:
> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =
3D20
> number
> 741598.
> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =20
> =3D20=3D
>> PO6 3AU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


 -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
 -- Type: application/msword
 -- File: Inventory.doc