AW: Re: AW: Re: Bow

[Jens Börner]

Hi Gerry,

Why would they? Are there any evidences they did?

With kind regards,
Jens=20

-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
[mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag von =
Gerry
Embleton
Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=E4rz 2010 21:13
An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
Betreff: Re: AW: Re: Bow

I really don`t understand you line of reasoning... why should archers =
NOT
carry there own bows?Perhaps i`m just a wee bit dim...
Gerry
On 30.03.2010, at 18:55, e.berndt-at-europe.com wrote:

> I'm not much of a bow-expert, but here's a picture showing longbows=20
> being excavated from a Mary Rose chest.
>
> [img]http://i39.tinypic.com/w3faq.jpg[/img]
>
> I think it is an acceptable question on how a single archer would have =

> saved his weapon from the weather, but on march usually an army has=20
> light cavalry advancing, so they're save from a surprise attack.
> I guess the truth lies somewhere in between whereas some archers must=20
> have been fully equipped on march to be able to react fast and most=20
> were in the train with their bows in chests. Still, a chest can be=20
> opened very easily and a bow can be strung very quick, so why wouldn't =

> they use chests on a campaign?
>
> Grts, Ernst
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gerry Embleton 
> To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> Sent: Tue, Mar 30, 2010 5:57 pm
> Subject: Re: AW: Re: Bow
>
>
> I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =

> =3D20=3D large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who =

> owned =3D20 heir own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I =
believe=20
> that some =3D20=3D of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished =

> staves.Bows Can be =3D20=3D waxes but a stout linen or leather bag =
will=20
> protect them  from knocks =3D20=3D surprisingly well.I believe that a=20
> mediaevil archers had even more =3D20 eason to protect their bows than =

> we do given their service.
> Gerry
> ow bags..
> n 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>            I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =3D20=20
> carried in chests as were arrows for safety and convenience.  On the=20
> other hand =3D20=3D
>> when
> carried by individuals I  would have thought that they would have =
=3D20=20
> shown greater care.  My particular period is the high/low point of=20
> English =3D20=3D
>> archery
> that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is=20
> certainly the case.
> Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =3D20=20
> produced by craft methods to a very high standard.  Certainly archers=20
> may have =3D20 appeared at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure =

> that many were issued =3D20=3D
>> with
> equipment provided by their employer.  Whenever I have been issued =
=3D20=20
> with a weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =3D20 =

> accouterments, keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a=20
> good little =3D20 soldier.
> This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning.  I look after my =3D20 =

> bows with similar care but they require less care.  Of course there=20
> are 'orrible little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment=20
> but if your =3D20=3D
>> life
> depends upon its serviceability  (as mine never did) you would =3D20=20
> certainly care for it.
>
> The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I=20
> =3D20=3D
>> think
> and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as=20
> =3D20=3D
>> well as
> for other qualities as soldiers.
>
> I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =3D20=20
> school part for the next few days.
>
> Cheers
> Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =3D20
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =3D20=20
>> stored in chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your=20
>> article.
>>
>> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we=20
>> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =3D20=20
>> equipment as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was =

>> not =3D20 required by the medieval archer.
>>
>> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question the =

>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his=20
>> 'valuable' equipment".
>>
>> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> have
>> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =3D20=20
>> stored in English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts=20
>> suggesting =3D20=3D
>>> a more
>> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =3D20=20
>> normally assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais=20
>> in 1481 =3D20=3D
>>> there
>> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even=20
>> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =3D20=20
>> references I've seen to bow bags.
>>
>> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> arrow
>> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>
>> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =
=3D20=20
>> military context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both=20
>> bows and =3D20=3D
>>> arrows
>> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Davies  Sent by:=20
>> living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> 30/03/2010 11:12
>> Please respond to
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>
>>
>> To
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> cc
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =3D20=20
>> chests.  One of his decapitated Queen's was buried in one=20
>> (skinflint).  They =3D20 (chests not dead queens) have also been =
found=20
>> in the Mary Rose.  To store bows =3D20=3D
>>> safely
>> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they=20
>> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =
=3D20=20
>> are).  If you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on =

>> Henry =3D20 VIII's inventory which appeared in the Journal of the=20
>> Society of Army =3D20 Historical Research ages ago.  It deals with =
all=20
>> the archers ancillary =3D20 equipment. In those circumstances.  It=20
>> doesn't included bowbags for military bows =3D20=3D
>>> but it
>> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in=20
>> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar.  I wonder if bow bags=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> and
>> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who=20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> didn't
>> automatically identify them as being archery equipment.  At a =3D20=20
>> lecture at the Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton=20
>> skeletons it was postulated that a small copper ring on one of the=20
>> corpses could =3D20 have been an
>> archer's thumb ring!   I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>> museum
>> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =3D20=20
>> exactly like horn nocks for bows prior to finishing.  You tend to=20
>> see/interpret =3D20=3D
>>> what
>> you
>> naturally identify and are looking for.
>> Cheers
>> Jonathan
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=3DF6rner
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung=20
>>> =3D3D=3D
>>>> anyway?=3D3D20
>>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =
=3D20=20
>>> like =3D3D weapons according to froissart for instance in the =
100years=20
>>> war generally.
>>> =3D20=3D
>>>> When
>> =3D3D
>>> near
>>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =3D20=20
>>> really a reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be =

>>> the =3D20 reason =3D3D why we only bows strung in pictures? Compared =
to=20
>>> the crossbow, strings =3D20=3D
>>>> are
>>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the=20
>>> =3D3D=3D
>>>> housebook
>>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =3D20=20
>>> crossbows without any kind of protection.=3D3D20
>>>
>>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it=20
>>> =3D20=3D
>>>> would
>> =3D3D
>>> be
>>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =
=3D20=20
>>> march situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>>
>>> with kind regards,
>>> Jens B=3D3DF6rner
>>> Diu Minnez=3D3DEEt
>>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =3D20=20
>>> clothing and household equipment in the high and late middle ages=20
>>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Urspr=3D3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag=20
>>> =3D20=3D
>>>> von
>>> Jonathan Davies
>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3D3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>>
>>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =
=3D20=20
>>> bow, =3D3D ash, elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around.  I =

>>> have owned =3D20 all =3D3D three and shoot a war bow and treating =
them=20
>>> like an old chair leg would =3D3D horrify me! Bow bags also help=20
>>> protect them from direct sunlight.  You =3D20 shouldn't leave a bow=20
>>> out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =3D3D=3D
>>>> potential
>>> consequences.  A bows performance is compromised by both heat and=20
>>> =3D20=3D
>>>> cold =3D3D
>>> as I
>>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through=20
>>> carelessness.  Bows need protection from the elements and it is =
=3D20=20
>>> natural
>> =3D3D
>>> for
>>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment.  Whether the =3D20=20
>>> strings =3D3D need protection from rain is another question, we =
still=20
>>> wait on the =3D20 Mary Rose excavations for some definitive=20
>>> information on the subject.  How =3D20 they protected the surface of =

>>> the bow is another question entirely.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <=20
>>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>> it=3D3D20
>>>>> uncovered when not in use.  If I do that should I assume that =
=3D20=20
>>>>> my=3D3D20 illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less?  If they=20
>>>>> did not=3D3D20=3D
>>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>>>
>>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =
=3D20=20
>>>> 14th=3D3D20 and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence =

>>>> of any =3D3D
>>> evidence.
>>>>
>>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they=20
>>>> =3D20=3D
>>>>> do=3D3D20
>>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =
=3D20=20
>>>> of=3D3D20 protection that was being used.
>>>>
>>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>> the=3D3D20
>>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>>
>>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =
=3D20=20
>>>> and=3D3D20 uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on =
a=20
>>>> =3D20 period=3D3D20 illustration either.
>>>>
>>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text=20
>>>> =3D3D=3D sources.
>>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =3D20 =

>>>> access.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =3D20
>>>> could=3D3D20
>>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor scratchings
>> on
>>> =3D3D
>>>
>>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =
=3D20
>>>> without
>> =3D3D
>>>
>>>> the linnen bag.
>>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =
=3D20
>>>> is far
>> =3D3D
>>>
>>>> more effective.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Unless stated otherwise above:
>> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =
=3D20
>> number
>> 741598.
>> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =20
>> =3D20=3D
>>> PO6 3AU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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