Re: AW: Re: Bow

[Gerry Embleton]

I agree absolutely with jonathan I cannot imagine archers bows kept in =20=

large chests on the march in dangerous country or archers who owned =20
their own bows giving them up to dump in a chest . I believe that some =20=

of the staves found on the Mary Rose are unfinished staves.Bows Can be =20=

waxes but a stout linen or leather bag will protect them  from knocks =20=

surprisingly well.I believe that a mediaevil archers had even more =20
reason to protect their bows than we do given their service.

Gerry
Bow bags..
On 30.03.2010, at 15:25, Jonathan Davies wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>            I am sure that for mass storage bows would have been =20
> carried in
> chests as were arrows for safety and convenience.  On the other hand =20=

> when
> carried by individuals I  would have thought that they would have =20
> shown
> greater care.  My particular period is the high/low point of English =20=

> archery
> that of the Tudors ( I enclose a copy of my article) and then that is
> certainly the case.
> Archers were issued with livery bows and arrows which were mass =20
> produced by
> craft methods to a very high standard.  Certainly archers may have =20
> appeared
> at arrays with their own weapons but I am sure that many were issued =20=

> with
> equipment provided by their employer.  Whenever I have been issued =20
> with a
> weapon by Her Majesty I took great care of it and all its =20
> accouterments,
> keeping a weapon in good order was a sign of being a good little =20
> soldier.
> This meant much oiling, stripping and cleaning.  I look after my =20
> bows with
> similar care but they require less care.  Of course there are 'orrible
> little men' who don't care for their arms and equipment but if your =20=

> life
> depends upon its serviceability  (as mine never did) you would =20
> certainly
> care for it.
>
> The archers who served would have been well aware of these issues I =20=

> think
> and arguably they wold have been chosen for he skill in hat craft as =20=

> well as
> for other qualities as soldiers.
>
> I fear I must go now as I am off to Crecy and Agincourt with a =20
> school part
> for the next few days.
>
> Cheers
> Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Dave Key  =20
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>> I don't believe it's just in Henry VIII's reign that bows are =20
>> stored in
>> chests, and I would be very interested in a copy of your article.
>>
>> I had actually started to reply along the lines Jens had ... that we
>> should maybe question the way in which we use/own our military =20
>> equipment
>> as the bow bag is, possibly, fulfilling a function that was not =20
>> required
>> by the medieval archer.
>>
>> So I'm going to play a bit of a devils advocate here and question the
>> entire concept of an archer fretting over how he would "protect his
>> 'valuable' equipment".
>>
>> We have the evidence from the Mary Rose for chests full of bows, we =20=

>> have
>> records of hundreds, even thousands, of bows being bought and =20
>> stored in
>> English garrisons and for specific campaigns. Both facts suggesting =20=

>> a more
>> "central issue" than the "personal property" approach than is =20
>> normally
>> assumed. In the records for war equipment stored in Calais in 1481 =20=

>> there
>> are references to chests bound with iron and chests for arrows, even
>> detail down to buckets and baskets of belts for arrows. but no =20
>> references
>> I've seen to bow bags.
>>
>> In the Howard's accounts there is a mention of an archery glove and =20=

>> arrow
>> belts but again no bow bags that I can recall.
>>
>> I'm not saying that individuals wouldn't have had them, but in a =20
>> military
>> context the en masse storage, transport and supply of both bows and =20=

>> arrows
>> suggests that chests were a more common and practical solution.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Davies 
>> Sent by: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> 30/03/2010 11:12
>> Please respond to
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>
>>
>> To
>> living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>> cc
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: AW: Re: Bow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In Henry VIII's reign bows appear to have been stored in elm =20
>> chests.  One
>> of
>> his decapitated Queen's was buried in one (skinflint).  They =20
>> (chests not
>> dead queens) have also been found in the Mary Rose.  To store bows =20=

>> safely
>> from damage rather than packing them loose would suggest either they
>> recognised the danger or that loose bows area menace (which they =20
>> are).  If
>> you are interested I will email you a copy of my article on Henry =20
>> VIII's
>> inventory which appeared in the Journal of the Society of Army =20
>> Historical
>> Research ages ago.  It deals with all the archers ancillary =20
>> equipment. In
>> those circumstances.  It doesn't included bowbags for military bows =20=

>> but it
>> also doesn't include bracers, tabs or gloves.
>> There is also only one (possible) archer's tab in existence found in
>> Coventry and identified as such by Hugh Soar.  I wonder if bow bags =20=

>> and
>> other tabs were not identified by archaeologists and historians who =20=

>> didn't
>> automatically identify them as being archery equipment.  At a =20
>> lecture at
>> the
>> Birmingham Department of Archaeology on the Towton skeletons it was
>> postulated that a small copper ring on one of the corpses could =20
>> have been
>> an
>> archer's thumb ring!   I remember seeing some turned horn items at a
>> museum
>> (Snibston I think) which were unidentified which to me looked =20
>> exactly like
>> horn nocks for bows prior to finishing.  You tend to see/interpret =20=

>> what
>> you
>> naturally identify and are looking for.
>> Cheers
>> Jonathan
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jens B=F6rner
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> One question bothers me: why carying arround a bow when not strung =3D=

>>> anyway?=3D20
>>> When on march, the bows could be placed on a wagon, in barrels, =20
>>> like =3D
>>> weapons
>>> according to froissart for instance in the 100years war generally. =20=

>>> When
>> =3D
>>> near
>>> to the battle, they will be taken out and strung. So is there =20
>>> really a
>>> reason for a "bowbag" apart from modern ones? Might this be the =20
>>> reason =3D
>>> why
>>> we only bows strung in pictures? Compared to the crossbow, strings =20=

>>> are
>>> mentioned to be worn underneath the clothing, and for instance the =3D=

>>> housebook
>>> from wolfegg shows us crossbowmen on the march carrying their =20
>>> crossbows
>>> without any kind of protection.=3D20
>>>
>>> I personally think before thinking of something like a "bowbag" it =20=

>>> would
>> =3D
>>> be
>>> an idea to examine the situation of bowmen during war, camp and =20
>>> march
>>> situations to find out if such was really necessary.
>>>
>>> with kind regards,
>>> Jens B=3DF6rner
>>> Diu Minnez=3DEEt
>>> Reconstrution of german and french daily and military live, =20
>>> clothing and
>>> household equipment in the high and late middle ages
>>> http://www.diu-minnezit.de
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Urspr=3DFCngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> [mailto:living-history-bounce-at-companie-of-st-george.ch] Im Auftrag =20=

>>> von
>>> Jonathan Davies
>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M=3DE4rz 2010 11:12
>>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>> Betreff: Re: Bow
>>>
>>> Bow bags protect against surface damage which could jeopardise a =20
>>> bow, =3D
>>> ash,
>>> elm and yew bows do not like being thrown around.  I have owned =20
>>> all =3D
>>> three
>>> and shoot a war bow and treating them like an old chair leg would =3D
>>> horrify
>>> me! Bow bags also help protect them from direct sunlight.  You =20
>>> shouldn't
>>> leave a bow out in the sun on a hot day without being aware of the =3D=

>>> potential
>>> consequences.  A bows performance is compromised by both heat and =20=

>>> cold =3D
>>> as I
>>> know only too well having broken a 70lb bow on a cold day through
>>> carelessness.  Bows need protection from the elements and it is =20
>>> natural
>> =3D
>>> for
>>> any archer to protect his 'valuable' equipment.  Whether the =20
>>> strings =3D
>>> need
>>> protection from rain is another question, we still wait on the =20
>>> Mary Rose
>>> excavations for some definitive information on the subject.  How =20
>>> they
>>> protected the surface of the bow is another question entirely.
>>> Cheers
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Christian Folini <
>>> christian.folini-at-time-machine.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, March 30, 2010 10:00 am, Jonathan Davies wrote:
>>>>> Purely on a practical level you
>>>>> would be extremely foolish to risk damaging your bow by leaving
>> it=3D20
>>>>> uncovered when not in use.  If I do that should I assume that =20
>>>>> my=3D20
>>>>> illustrious brethren cared for ther bows less?  If they did not=3D20=

>>>>> protect their bows then why not?
>>>>
>>>> There have to be sources somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> With the hundreds of thousands of bows being in use during the =20
>>>> 14th=3D20
>>>> and 15th century, I do not believe in the total absence of any =3D
>>> evidence.
>>>>
>>>> Either there has to be an explanation in the sources on why they =20=

>>>> do=3D20
>>>> not need such protection. Or there has to be a hint on the form =20
>>>> of=3D20
>>>> protection that was being used.
>>>>
>>>> Hardly any bows survived, so I would not count on the survival of
>> the=3D20
>>>> protection (bags?). Even more so if they were made from linnen.
>>>>
>>>> On a painting or illumination that protection could look silly =20
>>>> and=3D20
>>>> uncomprohensible to an outsider. So I would not count on a =20
>>>> period=3D20
>>>> illustration either.
>>>>
>>>> So if there is anything, then it is more likely to be in the text =3D=

>>> sources.
>>>> But of course, those are the ones, that are more difficult to =20
>>>> access.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never quite understood the kind of protection a linnen bag =20
>>>> could=3D20
>>>> offer to a war bow. A linnen bag protects against minor scratchings
>> on
>>> =3D
>>>
>>>> the surface. Anything else will destroy the bow either with or =20
>>>> without
>> =3D
>>>
>>>> the linnen bag.
>>>> Also, water should not be an issue. Greasing the wood regularly =20
>>>> is far
>> =3D
>>>
>>>> more effective.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Unless stated otherwise above:
>> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with =20
>> number
>> 741598.
>> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire =20=

>> PO6 3AU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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