Re: Grapeshot

["Patrik Djurfeldt"]

Hello

Patrik (not Patrice) here... :)

Well then Wikipedia seems to be wrong.
Balls (of stone) packed in bags are described and illustrated on at least
two pages in Mariano di Jacopo's (Taccola) "De rebus militaribus" of 1449.

Codex Latinus Monacensis 28800, fol. 18v:
"saccus lapillis plenus in tuba"
Although the text describes stones in a "tube" or "pipe", the accompanying
illustration looks like a roughly cylindrical sack tied at the top, and
probably at the bottom as well (not completely clear on my grainy
photocopy). Next to it is the front end of a bombard, close by a "bombard
stone" etc.

Codex Latinus Monacensis 28800, fol. 19r:
A bag of stones, which seems to be illustrated at the moment it bursts open
in front of a bombard. The sack has a closed opening at its rear end.
Unfortunately, my photocopy of the CLM28800 picture doesn't show the front
of the sack. But the Codex Parisinus Latinus 7239, fol. 23r (a good copy of
CLM28800) shows the stones "bursting" out. The accompanying text says
"saccus lapillis plenus".

Regards,
Patrik Djurfeldt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Keel" 
To: "livin-history" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:08 AM
Subject: Grapeshot


Hello

We've had some bags of grapeshot (canister/case; tough these are
obviously 18/19th century words, where it referred to fine-grained
shots as opposed to grapeshot which then consisted of big balls),
or in german perhaps "Kartätsche" at our siege-engineer-display.

There was some commotion as somebody referred to them as Shrapnel,
which it obviously wasn't, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shrapnel
Henry Shrapnel not born then, and not explosive either.

Wikipedia now claims "Kartätsche" (the balls or whatever packed
in bags) was only invented around 1600, in the 15th century only
"Hagel" was used, essentially the same without the packing.
The source wikipedia quotes is dubious at best ("Militair-
conversations-lexikon, 1834") Ospreys "Tudor Warships" mentions
grapeshot for 1545; no idea about heir source. My Books, among
them http://openlibrary.org/b/OL6719429M/Geschu%CC%88tz_im_Mittelalter
don't seem to say anything about it. The above one covers only
the period up until about 1440, and it's not exactly easy to find
something in 14/15th century accounts if you don't know how it might
be called..

So the question is:
- Are there any sources for grapeshot/Kartätsche (not "Hagel")
  for the 15th century? Perhaps Patrice knows pictorial evidence?
- How was that thing called? In english, french or german.

Cheers
Seegras
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