AW: Re: Clothing Guide

[Jens Börner]

Hi Mathieu,

A little late, but I've got computer problems are we're preparing to get
married, and so on, and so on... ;)

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> - More regionality

My main goal was to describe the basic silhouette of our period. It is =
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international so I used sources from different regions to prove my =3D20
point.

I only mention regional styles in the chapter on doublets and only =3D20
lightly so. I agree that a more complete description of regional style =
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would be a good addition to the costume guide (even if the Company =3D20
focus mostly on Burgundy) perhaps as a separate chapter. However this =
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description would need a complete research on the subject. I must also =
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admit that I am sometime unsure about regional style. Whereas I can =
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easily say that a picture comes from Italy, France or Germany, I am =
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not sure if the difference is real or if it is the way the artist is =
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drawing it:
I can clearly see a difference of style between a drawing from a =3D20
Talhoffer manuscript and a Valere Maxime done for the Great Bastard of =
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Burgundy but there are also a lot of similarities. If you look at the =
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doublet on picture 4 page 15 in French miniature, you will find it =3D20
very similar to the ones on picture 9 and 7 on page 22 and both have =
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been painted in Germany. Puffed sleeves doublets can be seen in =3D20
France, Burgundy, Germany, Italy=3D85 The German codpiece you described =
is =3D
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clearly different from the one painted by Dierick Boots (picture12, =
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p23) but the ones on pictures 12, 13 and 18 are quite similar. We can =
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see small differences in shape but are they real or is it the style of =
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the artist that make them look that way?

Faced with incertitude, I decided to let the topic rest until someone =
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more knowledgeable would pick it up. As I said I have only made a =3D20
small allusion in the part of doublet but I wholeheartedly agree that =
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a more serious survey should be done. But It would probably end up as =
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specific guide for each region. :-)
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Understood. Only thing is, the cut of the hose and especially the =
codpiece
really is different in germany. The thing is, is the guide aimed for the
company? If so, I would stick to burgundian sources are emphasize the
difference.



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> - The garment from the 14th century you used as an example for =3D20
> padding is a
> jupon (I would not really call it "pourpoint", though we all know =
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> terms are
> quite weak). The point is, it is something worn over armour.
It is not clear what this garment was meant for, it is extremely =3D20
precious and it could have been made for civil use. I put it in the =
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guide because the structure of the padding match exactly the =3D20
ordinances written in 1382 but still in use in 1467 (but I didn't =3D20
translate that part and it is still in French) :-)
The pourpoint of Charles de Blois would be also very interesting among =
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other things for the shape of the sleeves.
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The garment normally refered to as "Jupon de de Charles VI. de france" =
is
very clearly a military garment and worn over other armour. There are
several effigies from germany and france from the 14th century, fro =
instance
at st. Denis, depicting that kind of armour, and up to an analysis from =
the
royal armouries in leeds there are also several hints:
- it has a slit on the right side at the hip region. This is where the =
sword
belt was put through. You can see this in 14th century effigies also.
- it still shows the marks of the original lionheads riveted to the =
breast,
where the porte=E9p=E9e was attached to ("weapon chains"). In a 17th =
century
text describing the garment this lionheads are still mentioned, but =
remove
afterwards, so it seems.
- it hows no marks of wear on the outside whatsoever

I would really really use the paltock of charles de blois as an example, =
if
using an earlier example. This is an civilian doublet, though still =
miles
from those of the 15th century.


I also have another addition:

Please! Point to the fact that textile laces should be made in =
fingerloop
technique, not in the popular "fingerhackeln" or "sticklisl".
If anyone does know different examples, I'm eager to learn, but up to =
now I
only know of surviving examples of "fingerloop", which means, not less =
than
5 loops. The black lace in your example picture seems to be the other
technique.
There are also examples for that balls at the tip of the aiglets, and =
the
teeth, tough the later ones are not dated 100% precisly, but those made =
from
sheet metal are by far more common. If you use such with holes, please =
use
rivets and do new dew them to the cord!


With kind regards,
Jens Boerner
Diu Minnezit
http://www.diu-minnezit.de