AW: Re: How to attach cuisses/leg armour

[Jens Börner]

Hi everybody,

This topic is a very interesting one, and a very complicated one.
Since I'm into 14th and 15ht century as well I'm interested in a =
possible
development as well as precise information on how to solve that for the
individual displays.

Let me begin with the 13th century. In the 13th century, maille hosen =
were
worn, attached to- yes, well, what? We actually don't really know it. =
Even
200 years before the time we are talking in this list.
The maille hosen are attached to something called "lendenier". Above =
this, a
"huffenier" is worn. And over that, the textile armour is worn.
"ein harte guoten lendenier den bant er umbe die huf"
and nestelte drann die hosen uf"
If the string connecting the maille hosen and the lendenier are cut =
through,
the maille hosen are going down. So far, so good. Normally, I would =
think of
an type of belt:
"Er gurte den lendeniere" and
"Ame lendenier sie enstricket wart
Von der hurteclichen vart
Diu Iserhose sanc uf den sporn"

Now 14th century: the limburg chronicles also mention the "lendeniere", =
this
time made by doublet makers, as an text from bruges from 1371 also =
states:=20
"Donaes, de pourpointstickere, sal mi maken een wambies ende een =
lendenier."
In late medieval French:
"Donas, le pourpointier, me fera un pourpoint et unes estraintes."
Now from the testament of the master jehan de meung (1305):
"D'unes larges ceintures, qui si pou sunt estraintes"

Now the already mentioned limburg chronicles:
"In derselbigen zit da gingen an die Westfeilschen lendenire. Dy waren =
also,
daz ritter, knechte unde reisige l=FCde furten lendenire, unde gingen an =
der
brost ane, hinden uff dem rucke hart zugespannet unde wanten also verre =
als
dy schufe lang was unde was hart gesteppet, bynach eynes fingers dicke. =
Und
qwam daz uss Westfalenlande."

So "lendeniere" as we know from  the 13th century is the thing the =
maille
hosen are tied on, and from the second half of the 14th century on there =
are
tied in the back and are "gesteppt"? There is no reference this is any =
kind
of doublet.

In the 15th century, we have the all-famous text from the French king =
Louis
XI: "provided there be a pourpoint without sleeves or collar of two =
folds of
cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which
pourpoint shall be attached the hose. Thus shall the wearer float, as it
were, within his jack".

Does not mention any leg armour (which I would a normal men going be =
foot
not to wear).

The surviving textile armour also does not give any hint, only the civil
paltock of charles de blosi from the 1360 does have points attached, to =
hold
the civil leg garments.

We have the also famous "how shall a man be armed", which also does not
mention hwo to attach the leg armour:

"He schal have noo schirte up on him but a dowbelet of ffustean lynyd =
with
satene cutte full of hoolis. The dowblet muste be strongeli boude there =
the
poyntis muste be sette aboute the greet of the arme. And the b ste =
before
and beyhnde and the gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un to the dowbelet =
in
the bought of the arme. And undir the arme the armynge poyntis muste be =
made
of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste =
be
trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with
cordeweneris coode. And than they woll neythirrecche nor breke. Also a =
payre
hosyn of stamyn sengill and a peyre of shorte bulwerkis of thynne =
blanket to
put aboute his kneys for chawfygeof his ligherness. Also a payre of =
shone of
thikke cordwene and they muste be frette with smal whipcorde thre =
knottis up
on a corde and thre coordis muste be faste sowid un to the hele of the =
shoo
and fyne cordis in the mydill of the soole of the same shoo and that =
there
be between the frettis of the heele and the frettis of the myddill of =
the
shoo the space of thre fyngris.=20

ffirste ye muste sette on Sabatones and tye hem up on the shoo with =
smale
poyntis that wol breke. And then griffus and then quisses and the breche =
of
mayle. And the tonletis. And the brest. And the vambras. And then =
glovys.
And then hange his daggere upon his right side. And then his shorte =
swerde
upon the lyfte side in a rounde rynge all nakid and pylle it oute =
lightli.
And then putte his cote upon hos bak. And then his bascincet pynid up on =
two
greet staplis before the breste with a dowbill behynde up on the bak for =
the
make the bascinet sitte juste. And then his long swerde in his hande. =
And
then his pensill in his hande peyntid of seynt George or oure lady to =
blesse
him with as he gooth towarde the felde and in the felde."

Interesting information on the doublet worn (though again, not germany =
or
france), but none on the leg armour.

An more interesting hint comes from some stencil drawings from Villa
Farnesina, Inv. FN 2818-2833, also mentioned by Tobias E. Capewell:

In fol 2825v King syphax is shown, wearing an doublet with two points at =
the
shoulders, and several at the lower end of the doublet. Combined with =
holes
where points are put through, at the hip, where the hosen are attached. =
This
leaves us with the question: what are the points ar the end of the =
doublet
are intended for?

I think an more intense look at the italien (arming?) doublets recently
mentioned in this list would give us help. At leats the look similar.

If we dig further, we find for instance the talhoffer "ambraser" codex =
from
1459, showing an armoured duell, where a knight is stripped from his =
armour.
There we can see a slightly padded doublet, and hints of points, to =
which
the leg armour is attached to. Hints, not more.

But, since this would be too simple, a look at some local sources, like =
one
painting from the st. martin church in forchheim, southern germany, near
Nuremberg, seems to depict leg armour attached to the body harness.


So, after all, what do we have? Hints, at least I do not have more. This
topic seems to be as enigmatic as to find a realy source for an doublet =
worn
underneath german late gothic armour...

If anyone has more ideas, information, please! Add to it. Pictures =
available
on request (have to put them somewhere).

With kind regards,
Jens Boerner
Diu Minnez=EEt