Re: How to attach cuisses/leg armour

[Mathieu Harlaut]

Hi Wolfgang,
> hmm, your arguments sound convincing, I have to reconsider that,  
> i.e. decide if my inconveniences don't stem from a flawed  
> reconstruction of clothing and if I have been trapped by a  
> "reenactorism";-)

We all are trapped at one time or an other. :-)

Anyway if we don't have more references your solution is as valid as  
mine.

> Just an addition which might be helpful for anyone interested in  
> "armoured fashion":
> I have been pointed to a very interesting english text called  
> "Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes by Johan Hyll, Armourer  
> sergeant in the King's Armoury"
> Bodleian Library, Ashmole ms. 856, art.22, pp. 376 - 383
> Here's an online transcription of the text: http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2008/12/treatise-of-worship-in-arms-by-johan.html
> This section is especially interesting for our discussion:
> "First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And
> the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth  
> byesse
> as the hose is A payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced &
> fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed, And above withinne Lyned
> wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too
> an yncle above ye wriste. And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole
> halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his  
> Sabatons
> And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places
> hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote
> wt oute sleves, ye syses of him3 quarters aboute wt outen coler, And
> that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves  
> and
> coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt=2
> 0bras and ye
> Rerebrase"
>
>
> I do have of course difficulties in reading "ye olde englishe", so  
> any help there is highly appreciated.
> But my first rough read was that there are two different petycotes  
> (?) mentioned.

This is a very interesting text. Thanks for sharing.
I am neither a specialist of old english but it seems there are 2  
petycotes but it is not clear which is what.

Regards,

Mathieu


>
> Regards
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: Mathieu Harlaut 
> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
> Verschickt: Di., 11. Aug. 2009, 13:16
> Thema: Re: How to attach cuisses/leg armour
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the precision. I am not too much concerned about the terms,
> they tend to change with time and describe different things depending
> on the context.
>
> However I am not convinced by the garments you are describing :
> 1- a sleeveless  doublet (like a vest) holding the hose
> 2- a arming doublet (slightly padded) to attach the armour parts  
> (arms)
> but not attached to the hose.
>
> I believe that the design of XIVth and XVth century men costume  
> comes =20=
>
> from the development
> of plate armour, therefore I see no reason why it should be  
> different =20=
>
> to the civilian costume:
>
> One single arming doublet (slightly padded) holding the hose AND the  
> =20
> different parts of the harness (arms and legs)
> It would explain why the clothing is so close fitting : to prevent =20
> that any excess of material would impair movements
> or leave an unprotected gap under the armour.
>
> My opinion is based on the following evidence:
> 1 - the only document describing a sleeveless pourpoint dates from =20
> 1468 and it is meant to be worn=2
> 0under a jack.
> The fact that it is describe precisely at that date would tend to =20
> prove that it wasn't worn commonly before that (under armour,
> jacks or anything else). The jack describe in the text is meant to  
> be =20=
>
> worn without any other armour. (25-30 layers of linen).
> This text describes the equipment of French "Franc Archers", the =20
> common infantrymen of that time, it is not related to knights,
> or men at arms wearing armour.
>
> 2 -The famous text "How a man schall be armyd at his ese when he  
> schal =20=
>
> fighte on footeHastings MS. [f.122b] "
> Describes a doublet with sleeves and nothing else, it even says that  
> =20
> the doublet should be worn with no shirt.
> Middle English Version :
> He schal have noo schirte up on him but a dowbelet of ffustean lynyd  
> =20
> with satene cutte full of hoolis. The dowblet muste be strongeli  
> boude =20=
>
> there the poyntis muste be sette aboute the greet of the arme. And  
> the =20=
>
> b ste before and beyhnde and the gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un  
> =20
> to the dowbelet in the bought of the arme. And undir the arme the =20
> armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make  
> stryngis =20=
>
> for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as  
> poyntis. =20=
>
> Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. And than they woll  
> =20
> neythirrecche nor breke. Also a payre hosyn of stamyn sengill and a  
> =20
> peyre of shorte bulwerkis of thynne blanket to put aboute his kneys  
> =20
> for chawfygeof
> his ligherness. Also a payre of shone of thikke =20
> cordwene and they muste be frette with smal whipcorde thre knottis  
> up =20=
>
> on a corde and thre coordis muste be faste sowid un to the hele of  
> the =20=
>
> shoo and fyne cordis in the mydill of the soole of the same shoo and  
> =20
> that there be between the frettis of the heele and the frettis of  
> the =20=
>
> myddill of the shoo the space of thre fyngris.
>
> 3- There a lot of miniatures and paintings showing men with arms and  
> =20
> leg harness and no breastplates.
> In that case they were a short sleeveless jacket (surcote) that  
> shows =20=
>
> a regular doublet underneath.
> Nothing long, bulky or extensively padded.
>
> 4- It was then fashionable in Italy to have points at the shoulders  
> on =20=
>
> civilian doublet for everyone
> (even elders and small boy). Those doublets are clearly inspired by  
> =20
> military costume (like a camouflaged
> trousers worn by children nowadays) and they are attached to the  
> hose. =20=
>
> They could have mixed 2 different
> garments (civilian doublet and military doublet) but I doubt that.
>
> Willhelm: Thanks for the info, do you know were we can find this =20
> article?
>
> Regards,
>
> Mathieu
>
>
> Le 11 ao=FBt 09 =E0 12:36, wuritter-at-aol.com a =E9crit :
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mathieu,
>>
>>
>> thanks for the quick answer and sorry about the terms, indeed I may  
>> =20=
>
>> have been confusing them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With arming doublet I mean a (slightly) padded clothing being worn  
>> =20
>> und
> er armour - used for attaching various parts of armour (according =20=
>
>> to the Hastngs ms "How a man shall be armed at his ease"), but not  
>> =20
>> necessarily used to attach the hoses.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With pourpoint I meant -after reconsideration obviously confusing =20
>> the terms - the sleeveless doublet mentioned in either the Hastings  
>> =20=
>
>> ms "How a man shall be armed..." or the Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856  
>> =20=
>
>> "Traytese of the poyntes of worship in armes" by Johan Hill, from =20
>> around 1434.
>> Therefore you're right, arming dounlet seems to be just another =20
>> (english) name for pourpoint.
>>
>>
>> Again I may be confusing the terms, but as far as I have read and =20
>> seen illustrations/paintings, the arming doublet could have been =20
>> worn additionally to the regular combination of hoses and the =20
>> doublet; therefore working as a foundation garment for the armour.
>>
>>
>>
>> -at-Willhelm: thanks for the hint, I will have a look.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Wolfgang Ritter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung-----
>>
>>
>> Von: Mathieu Harlaut 
>>
>>
>> An: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
>>
>>
>> Verschickt: Di., 11. Aug. 2009, 11:56
>>
>>
>> Thema: Re: How to attach cuisses/leg armour
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Hi Wolfgang,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think I have some specific references to answer you =20
>> question. =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> =3D0
>> A
>>
>>
>> B
> ut it is indeed an interesting one and I will take a closer look.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> However I would like to have some precision on the terminology.  
>> What =20=
>
>> =3D20
>>
>>
>>
>> do you call an arming doublet and a pourpoint?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For me it might be the same thing as in french it describes more or  
>> =20=
>
>> =3D20
>>
>>
>>
>> less the same garment but in different periods. A garment that is  
>> =3D20
>>
>>
>>
>> "pourpoint=3DE9" is a padded garment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mathieu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Le 11 ao=3DFBt 09 =3DE0 11:23, WURitter-at-aol.com a =3DE9crit :
>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>> Hello everbody,
>>
>>
>>
>>> this has buggled me for quite some time: do we have a real  
>>> evidence =20=
>
>>> =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>> for attaching the leg armour via points to an arming doublet?
>>
>>
>>
>>> I attach
>>
>>
>>
>>> the legs to my arming doublet which seems to be the solution of  
>>> the =20=
>
>>> =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>> majority of 15th ct reenactors, although I think that attaching =20
>>> them =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>> to
>>
>>
>>
>>> the pourpoint instead of the arming doublet
>>
>>
>>
>>> may be a good solution as
>>
>>
>>
>>> well. Others use belts or braces of various shape.
>>
>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>> But neither paintings/illustrations nor effigies I've seen really  
>>> =3D20=
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> show the method (for obvious reasons), so until now I have n
> ot yet =20=
>
>>> =3D20
>>
>>
>>
>>> seen or read a reliable
>>
>>
>>
>>> prime source where/how the leg armour was attached.
>>
>>
>>
>>> For sure, there are gazillions of period
>>
>>
>>
>>> pictures and illustrations o
>> f a more detailed nature I've missed so =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> far as well as other written
>>
>>
>>
>>> comments alike the well-known "How a man shall be armed" etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> But I really like to go the authentic way and therefore I'd be  
>>> glad =20=
>
>>> =3D20=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> if someone has a period source or at least some sound  
>>> interpretation.
>>
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>>>
>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>> Best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Wolfgang Ritter
>>
>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> =3D
>>
>>
>>
>> =
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