Re: Dismounted burgundian men at arms

["jlrreed-at-ix.netcom.com"]

Dear Alan,

While de Commynes mentions "some" of the Burgundian men at arms dismounting
to fight with the archers at Montleherey (1465 - and in passing mentions
they 'learned the habit from the English'), the bulk of them remounted and
fought mounted. From his commentary, those who dismounted had either armed
differently, or had removed harness to fight on foot, as he metions one of
the Lalaings was killed 'as he remounted hastily without rearming', and he
attributes his death to this.

Other than de Commynes, there is little evidence for Burgundian men at atms
having dismounted often to fight - from Browershaven in the first 3rd of
the century, under Philip le Bon, to accounts of Gavere and Rupplemond mid
century, to Montlehery itself, where the bulk of them remounted, to the
Memoires of de Haynin, to the accounts of the 'battle' at Neuss (1475), and
in all three major field battles with the Swiss, the Burgundian Men at arms
are shown funtioning , almost exclusively, as mounted, armoured shock
cavalry. In point of fact, in the only description we have of Burgundian
drill, the Men at arms are mentioned having to practise (paraphrased)
'charging, being recalled, forming on the flags..' No mention is made
anywhere of their practising to dismount to fight with the archers - the
infantry mentioned as drilling with the archers in close cooperation are
the pikemen. The times we 'see' them fighting dismounted is almost
invariably in sieges, and in the assult on towns and fortifications.

As the Army of Charles the Bold was increasing modeled on, and dominated by
the Italian example, and Italian Condottieri commanders (the progress can
be seen in succeeding ordinances reorganising the army, as well as the few
documentary accounts we have of how the army was engaged) - the very last
reorganisiation seems to try to build a infantry to fight the Lorrainers on
the Swiss model, and the few descriptions we have from the opposing side
describing the fighting at Nancy show the Burgundian infantry being drawn
in a block, and going down fighting while the remaining cavalry was swept
from the field. The infantry won the grudging respect of a Swiss commander,
who said 'they stood long...', but that infantry was likely composed of the
last drafts of Flemish pikemen to reach Charles that late Fall, 1476- not
dismounted men at arms.

In brief, the armies of the ordinances underwent seemingly three different
periods of orginisational style - initially following the traditional
Anglo-Burgundian model learned in the last part of the Hundred years war
(1471 ordinance), and a re-modeling or modification after the Italian
fashion and initial experience enjoyed in the tensions and skirmishes
between France and Burgundy in 1471-72 (the remodeling, and reorganising of
the command structure taking place in 1473), and finally a last
reorganisation after the disasters of Grandson and Morat(1476) - whether
this is brought on as largely a measure of economics, as it emphasises the
infantry arm, or a concious attempt to try to follow the fashion to some
degree of the enemy who gave them such a severe drubbing is largely a
matter of speculation. 

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Bob Reed

Original Message:
-----------------
From: alangruber alangruber-at-supanet.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:49:57 +0100
To: living-history-at-companie-of-st-george.ch
Subject: Dismounted burgundian men at arms


I wonder if members can tell me the frequency of burgundian men at arms
dismounting for battle in the burgundian wars. What was the largest
proprtion of the total men at arms dismounting at any battle with the
swiss. 
Any other info on dismounting / non dismounting m at a would be helpful.
thanks Alan Gruber


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .